Audience Questions and Answers
Deborah Siegel: Does anybody have a question they’d like to address to a specific panelist or to the panel as a whole?
On Rage
Audience Member: . . . I want to . . . throw out the larger question of rage. I found that word so loaded. What is it? Do you find, is it pressure? What is it that makes women so angry—who seem to have it all, who seem to have it all wrapped up?
Cathi Hanauer: Well, it’s funny, I think for me, I can speak for myself I guess. I feel less enraged than I did when I started this book. . . . And this is a whole new thing that has come up for me, so I’m not sure I’m going to be very articulate about it, and maybe not even PC about it.
But I always had to work very hard. I got married with the assumption that I would always make half of the income. We are both writers. We lived in New York for a long time and we worked very hard just to keep afloat. And he worked for a nonprofit.
When the book came out and started to do well, a little chunk of money came in that sort of changed our lives in a way, for a while. It was temporary, but for the first time, since I had my daughter, who is almost nine, I did not have to work so hard this summer.
And I’m a person who loves my work, who needs my work, who thrives on it. But I have to say, taking a summer to just be with my daughter, at the same time, while my husband was doing his book which . . . he had a very intense deadline. He had to be working hard. For the first time, I felt like a stay-at-home mother and it was really a luxury. And it’s not that I would choose to do it differently, it’s just that I saw that being a little more financially secure made me less enraged. I had to work very hard and I’m not saying I’m not privileged.
I mean, obviously as Lynette pointed out . . . I was educated and I have a house to live in and food to eat and I can’t complain in that way. But I think that for women that are pulling in the income, and particularly if they feel ambivalent, they feel ambitious, and they love their careers, it’s just too much.
I’m not answering the question very directly, but . . . it’s a lot to carry. I think that I always assumed that my husband would be able to step in and pick up the pieces at home, and it would be an egalitarian marriage.
I think he’s tried to do that but . . . there are certain things that just don’t work, at least for us, as hard as he tries. And so, it was sort of shifting in that way. And it worked very well for us to have him making a little more of the money and me doing a little more of the maternal stuff . . . .
On Compromise and Loss
Audience Member: . . . One of the things that really hasn’t been brought up, all the feelings that have been talked about, is one of loss.
Because I think that the compromises that we make include a sense of loss. So when you are so relieved to spend that time with your children, when you can’t do it, there is tremendous loss there. When your mother has to leave that job because she needs to spend more time, there is loss.
And there is a lot of resentment and rage that goes with that—I have to make that choice, I have to lose something, somewhere. And it’s very painful. And that kind of pain leads to rage, I think.
But there is another aspect of this which is, . . . we are so busy working on ourselves and trying to change ourselves and losing sight of the fact that there is something out there, which is part of this. I wonder if someone can speak to the fact that we ourselves embody this cultural norm. That is, . . . that we actually want to spend more time with our children. I want my husband to schedule a dentist appointment, but he doesn’t do it right. And so, how do you deal with that?
Lynette Clemetson: . . . A lot has been written. I know that Newsweek did a cover on stay-at-home dads. And when it came out, my husband and I had a talk about it. And I had to be honest, that I’m not really open to that. I’m just not. And we talked about it here, and unless he were an artist or a writer or something—that he would take a break from a career to pursue a passion and stay at home and work on that—I’m not comfortable with me being the primary wage earner and him being home with the kids.
And I think part of that is, I feel like I have worked really hard and I feel like I would feel robbed, and I would be very resentful if I was the one who didn’t have some time to be at home with the children. And it doesn’t mean that I [don’t] want him to help out on this issue of how we embody these traditional concepts.
I mean, we’ve been working on it the past couple of years, with a little help, because I would complain about how I often did everything. That I worked really hard. I was the one who traveled in my job, and I quite often was the one who also paid the bills, who did the cooking, who did most of the cleaning, who did the laundry.
I mean, he had certain things that he did, but I felt that I was doing most of the things and still, with a more kind of crazy and demanding job. And as we started to break it down and look for ways that he could do more, the question came up—well, why don’t you let me do more? And when I do something, why do you take it over and say that it has to be cleaned this way?
And I had to get real with myself on that and realize that if he takes over paying the bills and he decides to pay the cable bill on this day, and the electric bill on this day, that’s not on the schedule that I always got it done, that I have to step back from that and not obsess. Because at the end of the day, it’s not like we’re missing paying any bills.
He just does it differently. And I had to sort of think about—well, is part of my identity wrapped up in convincing myself that I can have this immaculate house and do all of these things and travel a couple of weeks of the month, and still get all of this done?
And was I comfortable letting it go? And it was hard to let some things go. I have, now, but it’s still something that I struggle with. And even when I was leaving this morning, because the storm was coming, I found myself making this list—make sure we do this, and are there batteries, and I’m not going to be here tonight, and what do you have to eat?
And I just was like—well, this is ridiculous. He’s a grown man, he’s my husband. He’s not my child. And if for some reason he doesn’t buy batteries, and he’s sitting in the dark tonight, he will work it. You know? . . .
On Expectations for Men
Audience Member: Building on what Lynette just said, and Cathi, on what you said., it seems to me that this generation is kind of stuck, the men are sort of stuck in that they were brought up basically in an era in which they weren’t expected to do all these things. But they have come of age and married into an era in which they are.
And they actually didn’t really become trained, even in very indirect ways just by observation or by societal expectation to do these things.
And the simple fact is that most 30-year-old men don’t know how to properly do the pan. And they don’t realize that just having it sit in the sink overnight and saying they are going to do it in the morning is [not] an adequate answer.
Lynette Clemetson: Do you know my husband? (laughter)
Audience Member: That’s my husband. What ends up happening is that women our age or in their 30s or early 40s are taking on the role of, as you say, mother and wife. Because you have to do all of that catching up and bring your husband or your boyfriend or your lover, whatever, up to the age level, to the expectations that are there now.
So I think that one of the challenges for women today is to ensure that they then raise the next generation of boys so that they are trained from the beginning. So that the next generation of wives doesn’t have to do the mommy thing. There’s no question to that, but I’d like to hear feedback.
Cathi Hanauer: I agree. That’s what I was going to say. That a lot of the problem, I think at least for me, is that my husband and I were both raised in families where the mother did everything. And the man made the money. And my husband didn’t want to have to make all the money and I didn’t want him to.
But he didn’t know how to cook the food, clean the house. It gets to a point where you are either nagging all the time— I hate to use that word, but it is the word. Or you decide, OK, I can have another fight with him or I can do this myself.
And sometimes you just pick doing it yourself, and it’s further complicated by having the children. . . .
On Keeping Up with Change
Audience Member: . . . The representation of the panelists is excellent and broad, in the sense that it represents a very youthful person in the middle, and a medium, to the left; and older, to your right. It broadens all of our perspectives. . . .
I have three children. A full-time job. . . . I worked for many years in a . . . profession with little money and a lot of commuting, trying to raise children. I struggled with my husband financially for a decade or more.
We do less struggling. He went into business for himself and I decided to work for private business, which is a lot more lucrative. And I have to agree that financially, it took the stress off enormously. And that changes everything. And I say to my husband—I never want to go back to that place.
I don’t want to go back to that place I was when I first started. I have three boys, so I can definitely understand what people from the audience are talking about in terms of raising sons. And I think it is a wonderful thing to bring sons to the office, as it is to bring girls to the office.
And I don’t know that I ever considered myself a feminist, but I’m a woman [who] struggles with these things every day. But the fact is, I came from a generation of parents—my mother did work. It wasn’t a career, but she did work for Hofstra University, and is a very bright person.
And my parents always encouraged all of us women to go to college and to be financially independent. For those of us who got that encouragement, we’ve created a new culture. We’ve created the culture we’re facing. We’ve created the struggles and people even a decade ago, had totally different struggles with latchkey children.
Now at least we are even becoming more cognizant of leaving our children behind a lot more than we’d like to. That’s even another luxury. In fact, that black women for generations have not had the luxury, even saying it is a choice. So I think we are blessed by the fact that we have these choices.
We are creating our own culture and we are making significant change—maybe at such a rapid pace that we can’t keep up with it emotionally. So what we need to do is sit back, be 35 again, and think clearly about what we think our choices need to be.
And all we can do is love our kids and work hard and do the best we can. Rage is not something I ever felt. . . .
On Being Single
Audience Member: I think that I agree with you about the spectrum of people on the panel. But I think we’re also missing . . . one aspect of it. The reality is that there are a lot of people that actually have reached a level of success, but don’t have partners.
I’m 30. I work very hard and I’m getting to a place where I want to be, successfully, but I don’t have a partner. I don’t have children. And I’m still struggling, and there is a balance. There is a work/social life balance that a lot of people with children don’t really understand, don’t comprehend because they are like—well, you don’t have to do x, y and z.
But there is a little bit of me trying to figure out how I can fit it all in. And I think that’s something that hasn’t really been talking about, and I’m sure Veronica Chambers talked about it in her book which all of my friends have read, that are all in the same situation.
. . . I mean, we are looking at the Sex and the City generation where none of those women on that show have partners. And so, they work very hard and they talk about the struggles. And one of their biggest issues is being in a relationship with someone [who] is not going to feel threatened by what they do.
And you have to kind of think about their struggles and their balances on keeping everything in sync and wanting to be successful in their lives. And also, playing the role of being, OK, I am single, so here I am. I don’t have children, so here I am. But I still want these fantastic things. . . .
Lynette Clemetson: I actually am engaged in this conversation a lot because in Washington, in the journalist crowd . . . a number of my friends who are very successful journalists aren’t married. I see it as more of a fluke that I’m married. I’ve been married for, it will be nine years in November.
. . . I met my husband when we were students and we were just kind of crazy and we got married. But I have often said, and I’ve said to him, if I had met him in Washington when I was working for Newsweek in my 30s, I don’t think we would be married.
And I probably wouldn’t have taken the time to get to know him. I’m not even sure we would have been in the same circles. And a lot of my friends are single. . . . Veronica brings this up in her book, but I also did, I guess maybe in 2000, for Newsweek, I collaborated with another writer, Alison Samuels, and we did this roundtable for the magazine, of black women.
And it was just a group of women sitting around the table talking, and we wrote it out. It was a long Q&A in the magazine. May Jamison was there, who is an astronaut. And Cheryl Mills, who worked in the Clinton White House, an attorney. Tracy Gamble, who is an executive at HBO. Lisa Sullivan, who has sadly since passed away, but who was an activist.
It was a group of very powerful women and this issue of, how do you have a social life and how do you find a partner, was huge in that discussion. And because these were all black women . . . again, not to harp on race, but if you look at the statistics and the numbers of women, the overall increase in the number of women who have graduated from college now, the gap between the number of women and men who graduate from college is much, much larger for African Americans. And so, if you are 30 and an executive at HBO or a correspondent for one of the major TV networks, just the pool of men—if you are looking for black men—the pool of men that you meet who are at your level . . . I mean, it’s a real challenge.
And I have at least one long phone conversation a week about this. I don’t have any answers, but I think it is something that we didn’t talk about and it’s worth bringing up. Because I do think it’s important to balance your work and your social life. . . .
On Ambition
Audience Member: You’ve all described yourselves as ambitious people and there is a certain amount of pride in that description, of the struggle and being ambitious. I just wonder if, as you approach more financial stability or maybe just . . . if financial constraint were not an issue at all, if there is any sort of fear of professional ambition maybe fading?
If a part of you would like to be just a parent . . . ? I’m struggling with this now. I was incredibly ambitious and . . . I have this incredibly successful mother with this very amazing career. And I’m sort of ashamed by the fact that, my husband and I struggle with each other and say, we’re really not as ambitious as everyone thinks we are, or as we think we should be, for being very educated. And I just wondered if that’s a fear, if you could secretly, your secret little evil wish might be to just be home?
Carrie Fernandez: Personally, I don’t know if this directly speaks to it, but if I had all the money in the world to do what I want, I would probably travel for a while first. And even if I had children and all this money, I think I would still do something. I don’t know if it would be going to an office every day.
But I think ambitious people express that differently, whether it would be having the opportunity to do something artistic or volunteer or doing advocacy work, whatever, on a different level. Just because you have money doesn’t make you not want to contribute something. And having that luxury to stay home for a while might be what you are contributing.
Cathi Hanauer: In today’s society you get to do all that, channel all that ambition into your child’s school, by running the sales, the auctions. It’s unbelievable, the amount of . . . parent involvement. And I think anybody who has the luxury of staying home and still wants to be involved, they are more than welcome.
Lynette Clemetson: I don’t know, as I said, I’m not really big on labels and a lot of these words. I think ambition is a weird word. And I bet you are as ambitious today. You just are probably ambitious about different things. It sounds like you’re ambitious about having meaningful conversations with your husband, about what you want to do to make your life full. That’s something that’s good to be ambitious about. I mean, I think that there are some people who would probably think that I am less ambitious now, in terms of my job choice, than I was maybe in my 20s. I am working for the New York Times, but I’m not on one of the very high-profile beats.
I’m not on any track to be on the White House beat in Washington, very decidedly. It’s one of the hardest jobs you can have. And it really doesn’t leave much time for a personal life. Do I think I could do it? Absolutely. Do I think I’d be very good at it? Absolutely. But do I think I need to prove anything to anybody or to myself by doing it? Not really, anymore. But I don’t consider myself necessarily any less ambitious because I’m not choosing the most ambitious jobs.
On Professional Choices
Audience Member: Hi, I’m currently clerking at a law firm and it’s very traditional. All the lawyers are men and all the secretaries are women. And so, one day I was having a discussion with one of the lawyers and we were talking about how more and more women are going to professional schools. And his comment was, Well, it doesn’t really matter because in five years about 75 percent of those women will be stay-at-home mothers, married and with the kids. And I thought that was a really chauvinistic assumption. However, I thought about it, and he was saying that his rationale was that, with that kind of career, the hours are crazy. They keep you until all hours of the night.
. . . And I said to him, But my mom worked.
And he said, What does she do?
I said, Oh, she’s a teacher and she worked full-time and she felt that guilt of not being home with us and working. Meanwhile, the entire neighborhood of women didn’t work.
And he said, It doesn’t really matter; so many women are going into teaching because the hours are humane and you can build a family around that.
. . . I worry about the future and about having a career where I’m able to balance having success and a family. And I wonder, where is this coming from, this pressure?
Cathi Hanauer: I’d love to take that one because I know a lot of women who were lawyers. I use the word were very specifically. I think law, especially for a firm, is one of the worst careers for women and that’s why so many drop out. The hours just do not jive with having children, unless you are the kind of mother—and they are out there, and more power to them—who are unconflicted and who can either delegate all the child rearing to their spouse or to a third person.
I know one woman, educated at Columbia, who became a lawyer and completely quit to have children because it’s very hard to do it halfway. I know another that tried to do it part-time for a long time, when her children were young, and it was very hard to find a job, a firm that would take her on part-time.
And I know another lawyer where I live now who has three children and sort of has formed her own practice being a family lawyer. She works a flexible schedule from home, but doesn’t make enough money. Her husband is basically supporting . . . and I think it’s good to think about this now.
It really is. And it’s not a coincidence that a lot of women are teachers. I don’t know if people are familiar with it, but there’s a book called I Don’t Know How She Does It by Allison Pearson. It came out the same time as mine and we’ve done a lot of things together. It’s fiction, but she interviewed many women in England and her character works for a big company there, and it’s the similar kind of situation. And I won’t tell you what happens at the end, but I’ll just say that you can understand, reading this book, why that kind of career is not compatible.
So, it’s tough. It’s not that you shouldn’t pursue it. It’s just, pursue it with your eyes open, if you think you want a family down the road, and look for ways that that might be possible, to combine the two.
Carrie Fernandez: Just to add to that a little. My mother, when she was working, she worked a job with these insane hours, as well. And I ended up in the nonprofit sector. . . . Many nonprofits are more family-friendly because of the nature of them. You make less money, those sorts of things. But at the same time, you have to work harder sometimes because there are limited resources. But I think you can take a job that maybe you could work at home later, and finish things up, versus always having to be at the office.
I think there are certain jobs out there where you can make it work for you, and certain jobs where you probably can’t.
Deborah Siegel: Well, on that note . . . Thank you all for coming.
